CANC2: Process Meeting

CANC2: Process Meeting, July 26

We clean up the camp site and take over their picnic tables out the front for the day to have a meeting. I'm not feeling too optimistic, but better for having had a rant. I spend most of the day taking minutes, for my own reference rather than as anything official. I have no confidence that anything can be official.

We start with an introductory circle, after an abortive attempt by Tali to have a happyjoy circle which I blocked. If we were a happyjoy group, we wouldn't need the meeting.

I'm going to type up my notes here, so you might want to skip to the next page now.

Initial Feelings

Beth: calm, confused, tired of meetings.
Evan: frustrated, sick of riding short days for their own sake. Use our time better.
Jonas: frustrated with remaking decisions.
Moz: commitment, honesty.
Tali: frustrated, at a low point.
Erin: nervous, dismayed last night, better today.
John: negative yesterday, more optimistic now.
Chris: mentally exhausted, upset at this falling apart.
Naima: wants to honour the decision making process. Pretty low.
Aunty: unmotivated about riding. tired, decisions problematic but basically ok.
Anna: surprised at negativity. If we enjoyed it more it might work. Disrupted by a couple of people.
Leo: positive, down yesterday but wants to put more in.

Meeting

Evan: at Kulanarra the group decided not to revisit decisions as they're being implemented.
Beth: decisions are being made by attrition - talking until there's only one option left. Eg, last night.
John: hasty decisions, need to get info before making decisions. Yesterday unacceptable.
Leo: that's a bit harsh.
Moz: forced consensus doesn't work.
Tali: it's not a forced consensus.
Anna: bit rash to say unacceptable, problems are inevitable, on the fly decisions are good. We needed the meeting yesterday.
Beth: that's a positive.
Moz: we had Anna's meeting but threw away the chance to get a decision out of it.
Leo: that's logical.
Evan: that was a bad time to make a decision. Not right there, right now. Tiredness made the decision, should not have revisited the existing plan.
Erin: Sarah and Aunty rode ahead from Derby, was that OK? Group supposed to leave but stayed for rodeo.
Aunty: problem, felt people were tired instead of merits of decision, no chance to discuss it, no resolution as a group.
John: wasn't there, has no info.
Naima: ok to change, but not while in progress. Must have whole group.
Aunty: people opting out makes that hard. Chris not doing stall yesterday meant he was out of town very early on.
Naima: it was optional - "who wants to do a stall", so he didn't opt out.
Jonas: bad example, not group action.
Chris: no proper decision-making time, no group process, people dissatisfied, not feeling responsible to carry out group decisions. Need each day to have riding time, personal time, meeting time. All those are important.
Beth: making low grade decisions, yesterday she was out of it.
Erin: didn't know we'd have to backtrack to get to Tom Price, ill informed.
Leo: let yesterday go.
Aunty: hard to even get started on decisions, someone has to do it though.
Jonas: what to do when decisions break down. Need to cater for people better, support van job?
Erin: scribe notes from last process meeting:
- not hierarchical
- adaptive decision making
- plan decisions better
- Chris' time idea above
- more formal process
Chris: there's formal meetings, and we also need reflex decision ability.
Naima: how flexible? need to have a decision process before we can decide itinerary. OK to change iff: whole group present; not in process of carrying it out.
Aunty: happy with that, but it's sad if we get locked in to decisions. Need flexibility.
Naima: can work that in. We can make this work.
Leo: "most" of group, maybe.
Anna: details?
Chris: Derby was f*cked.
Naima: so people were already in town, we don't have an exact solution, but it could work.
Jonas: types of decisions: focus/ commitments vs fulfillment. (should be) Easier to change detail decisions than focus ones. Need minimum half the group, rapidly revise and must be able to rescue people rather than abandon them, otherwise decision can't be changed.
Naima: 15 minute break.
Erin/ Moz: lunch=car, so an hour?
Moz: don't hang people out to dry.
John: trust and commit.
Beth: issues with sending van back if people are late/ slow. Want to ride.
John: with a schedule we can actually do support. (talking about the other day when Beth went up the hill, John was worried when he found their bikes)
Aunty: agree John. Dangerous to drop it in an angry way. Need a constructive solution.
Naima: other day was last riders issue. Need to communicate. Daily meeting time a good idea. Do we rescue latecomers?
John: and distances. find out how far everyone can go. But whatever that is, keep to it.
Beth: regular check-ins good. might have helped the other day. Thinks it was a boy protects girl thing.
Aunty: last people idea was dropped? Have to be sure about that.
Jonas: commit to a time, if you get picked up by the van then such is life.
Jonas:Proposal: Commit to a meeting time and place. If people who are not there it is support's job to go and offer to pick them up. Personally responsibility to get there on time. Carried.
John and Chris and Evan: have to organise our day a lot more if that's going to work.
Erin: Proposal: if you leave your bike you must leave a note on it explaining what you're up to.
Erin: How flexible would Jonas proposal be? Yesterday would be separate?
Naima: tomorrow is a new day.
Erin: Add "if it has begun to be carried out". Derby exempt, why?
Naima: no good answer. Best way is to carry out the decision, honour the process. Make use of new information ASAP when the group regroups. Hard call if group is split.
Chris: last riders is a bit off topic, leave past examples. Need more time to make decisions, itinerary affected.
Naima: intertwined. But must have a way to make decisions before we can set the itinerary for the future.
Chris: yes, decisions about itinerary are all subject to decisions about decisions.
Anna: have we decided we need more time to make decisions? How flexible are decisions?
Erin: can we do the proposals?
Moz: Search and Rescue anecdote.
John: hiding bikes makes last riders impossible. Worrying.
Naima: how to leave notes? Ways to do, secret group signals, not everyone carries paper and pen. Flashing light a la evening stops?
Aunty: agree overall, but the specific example not good. Just the language used?
Naima: process. clarification is not discussion.
Chris: dissents, new proposal:Each person's personal responsibility to convey your intentions in all cases.
Evan: meeting procedure, we have a speaking list, put your hand up to get on it and wait for your turn.
Jonas: I have a Frisbee. (we break for lunch - that's four hours gone by)
Moz: report on van status. Alan has trashed steering bushings, but that's a common problem with those vans so new parts from Perth. Coupla days.
Evan: Proposal: split the bill for the van when we know how much it costs. Carried
Naima: phone call, Tanya didn't send the stuff to us here coz she's not organised. She's in Newman as of Monday. Will wait for us.
Proposal: send the stuff to Tom Price Carried
Erin: has contact details for a guy from Muroroa Atoll who is currently in Perth.
Decisions to make: meeting times, separate ride, meeting, personal time each day.
Evan: set next meeting time at each meeting.
Naima: can't fix the time for the meetings permanently, but need to have some daily timetable.
Aunty: Rio Tinto gorge is on the map.
Anna: itinerary determines daily timetable.
Beth: definitely need structure, need timetable.
Chris: half a day in a meeting is not a rest day.
Erin: what is the consensus? Sum up Moz points from last night. Idea of locked decisions.
Aunty: define locked.
Moz: can't revisit a decision for 24 hours after making it.
Aunty: how is that flexible?
Moz: if need to be flexible, don't lock the decision. Plan and be rigid when we can, not every time.
Erin: not into rigid decisions. Circumstances can change. Could lock in, but planned flexibility, plan to have a meeting to make more decisions when we have more info.
Chris: more flexible, need to be able to override.
Evan: need to allow for conditions.
Erin: if we have flexibility, how does it work when not everyone is present? Majority of group present?
Beth: forced decisions suck - delaying until no options.
Evan: as yesterday.
Moz: balance delay vs need to talk.
Anna: does not like the win/ lose nature of that.
Aunty: discuss go/ stay, unfortunate that sometimes (always?) some people lose. Not resolvable.
Jonas: if no consensus then the plan sticks.
Beth: times that that has happened it has been the consequence of other actions.
Moz: always having meetings in towns is not good.
John: after three hours he's tired, meetings become pointless. Yesterday forced decision by waiting.
Erin: yesterdays discussion about process?
Aunty: Yes. Derby was not as clear, better to come up with a solid plan now.
Evan: Kulanarra we came up with one: no revisiting during enactment.
Chris and Anna: dissent.
Aunty: different issue? Not dealing with new info, what do we do then.
Evan: he sees the difference. The situation has changed because our emotions have changed.
Jonas: Proposal (again) If a decisions is in the process of being carried out it cannot be changed.
Moz: unless we're all there to discuss it.
Naima: what if someone is already not there? Hmm, and if discussion will not result in reversal.
Evan: hard to phrase it. Thinking...
Anna: how does Jonas' proposal fit in?
Naima: set a limit on the discussion.
Evan: time factor. Time becomes the deciding thing at some points, eg yesterday.
Aunty: idea: time limits have never worked before, so how will they work now?
Jonas: perspective on the current situation: we've now spent five hours having a meeting that could have been avoided by doing one hours riding. Comments that the "one person is the group" problem is only an issue when the plan has already broken. So Moz and Naima proposals are really the same thing.
Naima: done before, if we do commit then there's no problem.
Aunty: but it's never worked before.
John: fear to commit, lack of faith in our decisions. Can we fix that by making better decisions?
Aunty: not wary of bad decisions, but we get new info all the time. Need to come up with ways to deal with that, don't want fixed decisions.
John: has to be reliability, totally flexible we've done and that didn't work.
Anna: call for dissent on proposals. Focus.
Chris: if one person wants to go, option of doing their own thing.
Moz's Proposal whole group present & consenting in order to change a decision. Must have consent to begin the discussion.
Naimas ProposalOnly change in emergency, need a simple majority who are willing to discuss
Proposal Set time frames for meetings, stick to them.
Dissent to Moz: 6 Dissent to Naima: 4
Beth: emergency only, need good decision in the first place
Naima: yes, these are a last resort.
Aunty; thinks having everyone present is ok
Chris: so last night we should have all ridden out?
Naima: yes. Even if we've been happy in the past can't assume it will be ok now.
Anna proposal 90% of group present to change. All but two?
Leo: some decisions made badly
Evan: direct response to Aunty: if have a framework then we can amend it if it fails. But with no framework we can't fix it. So lets get the framework.
Moz: make good decisions
John: but we don't
Tali: have so. this group meeting, for example.
Naima: agree Moz. Have already decided to make better decisions. Hopefully never use the fallback model.
Anna: move on. Lets clarify decision process.
Naima: restate the process
ProposalGet decision making process sorted out now
Chris proposal: daily half hour meeting to set next days itinerary
Tali proposal:No fixed time, just "after dinner"
three dissent
Jonas: more like 10 minutes, it's not critical
Erin proposal have half hour itinerary meeting every day, time set the previous day, not mandatory to attend, one day at a time
Moz: summary of a possible meeting process:
1. decide time and place for the meeting
2. set an agenda
3. have meeting
4. conclusion and state commitments
5. set time and place for next meeting
Not discussed.
Van report: no steering part until Friday (it's Wednesday)
Plan: Roebourne tomorrow? Tali needs to organised that now.
Road report: John says dirt road trashed at Fortescue River, open by Friday maybe.
Tali: other dirt road also closed at that river.
Tali: tomorrow not many people at Roebourne school, but we're welcome to go. Documentary video for us to see, 10am is a good time. Trevor (principal?) there from 8:45am. Students only there in morning.

And there the meeting ended. No resolution, and no commitment to change even though many people are unhappy.

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